When did you do or say something that forced you reframe your picture of yourself in a more honest way?

[Matt]

I ask this question because I recently experienced something that did this for me. About a month ago I was at my mother's house for the holidays and I used her phone to call my job. At the end of the conversation I said said something thinking the phone had been hung up, but it hadn't. All I heard on the other end was "yeah, I heard that", then click. What I said could be construed as bigoted, more with my tone of voice than what I actually said. Either way, I felt embarassed and "found out". You see, I am no longer the champion of the downtrodden, the underdog, or those with a disproportionate lack of power in our society. That was my picture of myself, and this faux pas of mine made it glaringly obvious to me that the reality of what was said and that way of thinking about myself are incongruent with one another. I simply can no longer tell myself I have no prejudices, I have shown my self that I do by showing another. This person and I will probably never talk again despite working with each other. I am not proud of myself for this incident, yet I am forced to live with this incident and wish to use it as best I can to see those parts of myself that I do not wish to see.

[James Parkinson]

Ouch. That sounds painful. Gratefully, I haven't had one of those in decades. The reason might be because I try to do this at least once a day even if it's a small thing. I call it "outing" myself. After making some observation about myself I try to share it with a few people. At first I started sharing with people with whom I felt "safe", people I thought would be compassionate. The past few years have seen bolder attempts by sharing things with people who I think are typically critical of me. What I've found is that they don't kill me and eat me.

[Russ]

Hi all hi Matt I'm quite interested in your point here. After listening to James's podcast Dark side & Violent man the other day my eyes were opened a little to this concept. You say you're not proud of this incident but shouldn't you be glad of it, after all it has shed light on something that in reality is part of you. How will you go forward from this point? How do you intend to eliminate this response in future, or do you think just being aware of the possiblity is enough?

[Matt]

My actions elicited strong feelings of negativity in someone else. Though it may be up to each individual to take responsibility for their own emotional state, I am not proud of the part I played in that.. That it took a piece of my "dark side" and placed it outside myself for another to see, it seems also that I was able to see it from another point of view; as an interesting stranger, perhaps. For that, I am glad, for my own arrogance became exposed to me. It is quite difficult to do that intentionally so when it happens accidentally, I wish to be aware of it as much as I can. Then i can observe and not be a slave to it. After all, as you say, it is a part of me. I wish to know myself fully, so i must accept the ugly side of things as well as the attractive side. One thing I have been doing is practicing more loving-kindness meditation. Trying to generate genuine feeling of goodwill towards all is important anyway. I've been considering making a charitable donation in this persons name, maybe to assuage my own guilt, but maybe to try to come closer to the person who I'd like to be but wasn't. As to how I will eliminate this in the future, I'm not sure, but after meditation I know I don't feel so harshly towards others.

[James Parkinson]

How do you feel towards the bigot I that has been exposed? Can you love it, accept it, understand it? Does this figure in as part of the plan? Is there a place for that I? If not, what will become of it? Questions, questions and more questions. *smile* Seems all I have is questions.

[Russ]

If self remembering is the key, and it seems to be as Matt wouldn't have made his comment otherwise, then shouldn't we begin to actually put some self imposed consequences in place if we fail to self remember. Matt's example is just the tip of the iceburg really. I've never considered this before, but on a short term basis perhaps it could help set a pattern of self remembering. Have you ever thought about / tried this?

[James Parkinson]

What kind of self-imposed consequences did you have in mind, Russ? Sheesh! Here I go again with the questions.

[Matt]

Very tough questions James! :). I understand it as far as knowing how my upbringing reinforced bigotry. Being of mixed ethnicities, but being raised in a white, conservative household, I may have attached myself to these "theories" that I was told about to legitimize my place in a family that looked a little different then me. I am ashamed of the bigot I because when it manifests it feeds my need to feel superior. But even in this experience of shame, I learn something: that there is not much difference in feeling superior and feeling inferior. On a physical sensation level, there are differences, but they both sap my energy, and work to prevent self-remembering. I think if can not react so strongly when a feeling like this comes up it will pass away. It need not be a permanant state for me. So I don't know what will become of it. I'm sure false personaliity loves it when this I manifests.

I'd also like to know what kind of consequences I might put in place. I not going to be flogging myself, I can tell you that :-). But a whack on the back by a crazy zen master once in a while might help.

[Russ]

I don' know I'm not talking electric shock treatment or anything but maybe denial of pleasures if we fail to self remember or something similar. Its interesting and I personally have reached the point where I'm starting to think removal from society is one possible answer. Last year due to redundancy / injury I was housebound for a few months. This lead me to begin to attempt to make my living from the internet, doing something I'd wanted to do for some time. Initially all went well and I found that not having to deal with people and everyday situations, particularly work related ones, elevated my thinking to a new level. I stopped being interested in what anyone else was doing, comparing my self to others, caring what anyone thought about me, and the need to feel superior disappeared. I found I lived in the moment more. Eventually I felt forced to return to work through financial instability. Although I use what I've picked up from this and similar type readings, there's no doubt my general frame of mind has deteriorated, and with that comes increased problems in relationships, increased drinking etc. I suppose that is where the work and the things you learn from it kicks in, but that all depends on self remembering firstly, which as we all know is difficult. So if we're serious about doing this properly, then if we consistently fail to remember, a pattern needs to be set, and consequences, even self imposed ones will focus the mind. I think I may give this a whirl. Consequence suggestions welcome.

[James Parkinson]

Lately I find myself in a state where imposing myself on myself amounts to self-strangulation. What I've come to see and accept is that proper self-observation is that and only that. Observing and not interfering with what is observed. To do this I’ve had to let go of many notions about what is right and wrong, what needs to be fixed or changed about this flux I've come to call me. I do not know me. Since I do not know me I have no right to judge me. If no right than it is rather pointless to persist in judging.

I am content to remember myself when I do and as content forgetting myself when I don’t. Russ, the experience you relate of it being easier at home is verifiable. This is why monasteries exist. I am not in a monastery but in life. What goes up must come down. Yes, of course it’s easier to love humanity when you don’t have to deal with persons. The real test is in dealing with the unpleasant manifestations of others like ourselves. This is where the rubber meets the road and that’s where the friction that produces the heat that creates the fire is found. It’s not that we’re no good as we are. We are potential and the process of realization needs fire, or so it appears to me presently.

I wish to remember myself. Being a self-developing organism means I cannot be compelled to remember myself either by myself or by anyone or anything else. Therefore it seems like punishment to attempt to make myself remember myself by withholding some pleasure from myself. Self-remembering is the greatest of pleasures and to not remember myself seems to carry with it the most severe consequences of leaving me at the mercy of the machine. So, for Gurdjieff’s sake won’t you all just be happy and give up the notion of self-imposed consequences?

Tah-tah and kissy.

[Bodhi Greenman]

And I too have stepped on a few toes during momentary lapses of conciousness. And I have tried the whole removal from society, locking myself in a room for weeks, and taking myself away to sit on a mountain, literally.

And then put me back in society and I still behave like a dick.

Atonement is what works for me. Or should I say, in my experience it's a more effective tool.

I see my ego learns much more quickly when my atonement takes more energy and effort than a faux pas.

So Russ my suggestion.

Pick up from the street, 10 pieces of litter every time you catch yourself having that thought.

And be willing to do it at 2am.

[Steve]

This is an excellent question I think. I try to "expose" something that I would normally conceal about myself to others, if not daily, then at least several times a week. Fortunately I have the luxury of being in a group of people with whom this is often seen as a good thing. They may not like what I say but it gives them the opportunity to work on themselves. I have also found that the consequences of "outing" myself, as James put it, are not nearly as dire as the imagination screams that they will be. In fact, what I find more often is that I'm usually the last one to know myself and others have known me more deeply for years.